Matt Swanson, CTO at Arrows
Hey, Matt.
Ben Orenstein:How are
Ben Orenstein:you doing? Welcome to the pod.
Matt Swanson:Hello. Hello.
Ben Orenstein:Nice to have you here.
Matt Swanson:Thanks for having me. I'm a listener and a a fan of the pod, so cool to be on here today.
Ben Orenstein:Awesome. So you are a you identify as a product engineer. So I say you would say, I think you're a product engineer at Aros. Is that right? Currently?
Matt Swanson:Yeah. I mean, technically, I'm the CTO at Aros, but I write a lot of code, so I still struggle to, identify as the CTO of, like, a 10 person company.
Ben Orenstein:Sure. Yes. But you also, write boring rails, which would you call a a movement, a substack? A philosophy?
Matt Swanson:I just call it a blog. But, yeah.
Ben Orenstein:And, also, the YAGNI podcast, although none this year, it seems like.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. No. I do, there'll be there'll be more YAGNI this year. I do it, Okay. As seasons.
Matt Swanson:So, usually, there's a season in the fall.
Ben Orenstein:Got it. Okay. So you're you're pretty prolific for a for a CTO. I feel like most engineers are a bit more, in the minds and less making content.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. I I feel like that's probably true. I don't really know why that is necessarily, but, I guess it maybe comes with, comes with, like, the product engineer, way of thinking too. It seems like you end up writing a lot, and, I'm fortunate enough to work at a place that, values me sharing some of that writing outside of the company. And, yeah, so that's mostly where a lot of my stuff comes from.
Matt Swanson:And so as a result, I think, some of it is more grounded in, like, practical things or, like, here's, you know, how we have, you know, built a feature in in an actual code base instead of, like, a tutorial, and, that seems to, strike a strike a chord with some people. Yeah. How do you how
Ben Orenstein:do you define product engineer, by the way?
Matt Swanson:Good question. I feel like it's hard to it's hard to define really, but I I feel like it's always been someone who is writing code, but is not like a designer, but cares about design, and is not like a product manager, but cares about, like, the user experience or, like, the flows of the features. And, so it kind of gets all, you know, mixed up and and morphed into this this bucket where you have other, like, product adjacent type skills, but you're still, like, technical and writing code. And, what it means in practice is, at least how we kind of run things at at arrows is that the engineer is kind of like the directly responsible person for a feature, and that might include, you know, writing up, like, the spec of the feature. It might include, like, doing mock ups or, like, flows.
Matt Swanson:And then probably you're coordinating with, you know, a designer on actually implementing it. And you're probably coordinating with somebody maybe on the customer or, like, product team in terms of, like, soliciting feedback, but you're kind of, able to to do it all. And so that's that's what I kind of think of when I think of a a product engineer, somebody that's able to ship things end to end where end to end doesn't necessarily mean, like, the full stack code, but also, you know, the the rollout and customer migration and helping, you know, plan something like the the the future, basically.
Ben Orenstein:So if it's not including design there, what is the what is the difference between an engineer and a product engineer? Like, how what do you see as distinguishing a thing there? I would expect a normal engineer to deploy things, to document things, that kind of thing.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. I think a lot of it has to do with, at least in my experience, has been, like, having opinions about some of that stuff and, having, like, good product taste, but maybe your taste sort of exceed your, ability.
Ben Orenstein:Okay. So so you're actually contributing to product based decisions of how this UI should look, what happens when you click here, that kind of thing?
Matt Swanson:Yeah. And I think for me, like, early in my career, I, you know, worked at a consulting agency. And so, it was very much like you were paid to sort of, you know, program the code part, and we have designers that will do, the design. And we have product managers that will sort of decide what we're building and decide how it's gonna work and, like, maybe what the rough flows are gonna be. And then we have, like, marketing people that are going to, you know, figure out how we roll out the feature.
Matt Swanson:And I always I always like to kind of dip my, dip dip my toes in some of those things, but I never, was really, like, fully doing it all. I just kind of, you know, early in my career, I would just say, like, oh, I just have opinions on how these things should be done. And so, I've kind of I kinda backed into that framing of a product engineer as someone who, you know, cares about those things and, wants wants to contribute on you know, that I guess that's the positive framing. The negative framing is, like, I just cannot delegate, you know, these things to other people.
Ben Orenstein:Mhmm. Mhmm. I think do you think this came out of your, like, consultancy background to some extent?
Matt Swanson:Yeah. For sure. I mean, I I was, you know, I think you and I have a similar background in in working at, you know, an agency doing, you know, custom software work. And, I always found myself, like, sort of frustrated, but I could understand why companies didn't want to, like, necessarily outsource all of the product thinking work to, you know, a development agency. Mhmm.
Matt Swanson:But I found that, like, I was always only being used with, like, 80% of my ability, when it was like, oh, just, you know, be the tech, you know, the tech lead on this project or, hey. We just need you to, like, write the code. And, like, I was happy to do that, but I always felt like it wasn't a perfect fit. So, obviously, if you can find something that's like, oh, yeah. This utilizes all my, abilities, then I'll feel, like, most engaged and most, you know, fulfilled with the work.
Matt Swanson:And so but the the you know, ultimately, like, when I was at at, you know, working at the consulting company, I did sort of, like, carve out a, you know, a title and a track of, like, a product engineering role and, what it what it ultimately usually meant was that I just got into lots of arguments with the designers and product people, in that context. But, yeah. So that was that was sort of when I realized that it was, like, consulting for a software development agency was not, like, the perfect alignment of what I was interested in and what I wanted to do. And, that was part of the reason, like, I'm, you know, working, you know, at a small startup where some of that is more useful and valuable just because we don't have, a ton of people. So there's a lot of overlap in in the roles that people are doing.
Ben Orenstein:Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. I I saw on your, controversial advice for Junior's tweet that you think folks should work in person at a consulting shop as a as an early job, which I I think I more or less agree with. I did think it was very useful for me to get exposed to a number of different projects.
Ben Orenstein:Although, I would probably it's like I think it is I think it's a good choice. And I think there's some strength. There's some some definitely some pros in, like, seeing a variety of things, like spinning up a number of greenfield projects, supporting existing legacy projects, getting good at diving into a new domain. That all feels, useful that you wouldn't get it, like, a single product company. Although I do I would probably say I think most of that is actually dwarfed by the quality of your coworkers.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. I I think that that is, you know, true. Obviously, if you're, working at some, like, you know, body shop or, like, global mega corporation, where you are really just, like, being staff augged out to, you know, some other mega corporation. Probably a lot different than, working at, you know, a boutique, agency that, you know, is selling a you know, the the thing about agencies, at least, like, the type of kind of boutique agencies that you and I both have worked for is that part of what you're selling is quality and, like, you know, these these, software practices. And so those are those are part of the offering, and so those are valued by the business.
Matt Swanson:Whereas if you're working at, like, Infosys, like, they, you know, don't really care. They're just trying to, like, get the bodies, like, billing the hours. And I think when you're early in your career, like, it's great if at work you're encouraged and, you know, there's space made for you to, read a book about how to do something or to, you know, watch a conference talk or to have discussions with your coworkers about code and not be so worried about, like, crushing Jira tickets.
Ben Orenstein:Mhmm. Mhmm. Thinking back, I feel like at Thoughtbot, I learned most of my it's like I got most of my skill improvement from conversations with coworkers, like, in particular, like, some dev discussions we did, maybe PR reviews that were very thorough or or pair programming. And so, yeah, I I I think I would tell most people that the the first thing to optimize for actually is the quality of the folks you're working with. But I also noticed I I I've said I I noticed and liked your like, you said, like, an in person consultancy, which I agree with that, particularly early in your career.
Ben Orenstein:I feel like this model of like, I think remote work works better probably when you're a bit further along. You've got more experience that you could be you can be more siloed successfully.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. It sucks that it feels like that's kind of like a ladder that gets pulled up of people. It's like, oh, once you, like, become more senior, then, like, just work remotely, and you're sort of, like, taking yourself out of the the pool potentially. Like, there's I think there's at least I feel like, you know, a slight amount of guilt of like, oh, yeah. Like, I basically just leeched, like, good software practices from sitting in an office with, some smart people for years years.
Matt Swanson:And now, like, I sit at home in my office, and, the best I can do is, like, you know, tweet out something every couple days that hopefully someone sees, but it's really not the same.
Ben Orenstein:Yeah. It's not the same. Although, I do really think you're contributing back to the commons quite a bit with your blog and your podcast and this thing and tweets. And it seems like you were actively attempting to contribute back. So I don't think much guilt is warranted, in particular with you.
Ben Orenstein:We are both appreciators of the flexibility of remote work, but also appreciators of the this high throughput, high bandwidth in person thing that happens.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. I think too, like, right now, like, a company that works in person is sort of, it's like somewhat of a niche, at least in the software world. And I think for someone that's getting started, that can be sort of helpful and, like, a as, like, a focusing, element. Like, you know, wherever you are based, like, there is probably a handful of software agencies, and there's probably, you know, at least one that is, like, you know, quote, unquote, like, the good one where, like, the good people work. And I think, like, focusing in there of, like, oh, my goal is to, like, get a job there or, like, meet some of the engineers there or, you know, get an internship there or something.
Matt Swanson:I think having, like, a specific goal like that is probably more actionable for, people than, like, oh, just you know, we know that the best programmers work at, you know, insert, you know, GitHub, Facebook, or linear or whatever the kind of company is. It's like, okay. There's, like, maybe, you know, 10 spots, and you're competing against tens of 1,000, 100 of 1,000, maybe people that are applying versus, you know, if you're in Boise, Idaho, like, I'm sure there's a great, you know, shop there with some people that know what they're doing, and you can I think I think that's, like, a more scalable path for a lot of people than, necessarily trying to to, you know, become, the employee at at one of these, you know, places where where I think you and I would agree, like, these maybe are, like, the best of the best, like, world class people, and maybe you would learn more, but I I don't know how, like, achievable that is? It certainly wasn't achievable for me. I mean, coming out of school, I I had, like, one job offer, and it was the place that I ended up working.
Ben Orenstein:Mhmm. Yeah. It's crazy to me to hear you describe in person software companies as a niche now. Yeah. It's it's so insane how I mean, I I don't know.
Ben Orenstein:I'm not sure that's a 100% true. Like, is this is it truly a niche? Not not clear to me. But it's certainly, like it's not an absurd statement, and that itself is absurd.
Matt Swanson:It's probably the majority, but, like, the mindshare. I feel like people just assume that, like, oh, yeah. All of the, like, good software jobs are, like, remote now.
Ben Orenstein:Yeah. That's feels right. I mean, that may be one of those, like, things that is more of a Twitter opinion than a reality.
Matt Swanson:Oh, yeah. For sure.
Ben Orenstein:Yep. But it's not a totally nuts statement, which is kind of crazy to me. Because I remember so distinctly starting Tuple and thinking, like, oh, yeah. Something like, I don't know, maybe 5% of development jobs are remote and, like, it could be as high as 10% someday,
Matt Swanson:maybe 15 or 20%. Yeah. So how do you think
Ben Orenstein:you ended up as someone that is not just a technical person, but a content creator? Like, you and I have both made sort of a lot of rails related content. Most developers don't go that direction. They are sort of shy, afraid, introverted, not interested. Like, what is it about your your brain or your experience that put you made you, like, the a creator as well?
Matt Swanson:Yeah. I'm not I don't know that I've, like, introspected enough to to know, like, how did I how did I get here? But one thing that, like, is sort of top of mind is just that, I like I like things where there's some kind of, like, public leaderboard that I can be sort of good at. There's probably some deep, you know, psychological, issues there of, you know, I've I've tied myself worth to, like, a number on a on a chart and not, you know, my qualities as a person. But
Ben Orenstein:Mhmm.
Matt Swanson:Like, I remember when I was in, like, when I was in high school, I was incredibly addicted to the game World of Warcraft, and that was, like, the only thing I cared about was, like, being, like, you know, in, like, the one of the best, like, World of Warcraft players that that there was. And, like, there's this whole, like, hierarchy of, like, you have to join, like, a team, basically, and then and then, you know, the you wanna be on the best team, and then you wanna be, like, the best player on the best team and that kind of thing. And, like, so I I I think that's just, like, part of my personality a little bit. And so at some point, I realized I should probably channel that into something more productive than, you know, playing, World of Warcraft. And so they're you know, I can I can, you know, backfill and maybe pattern match on some of this stuff?
Matt Swanson:Like, I think early on, like, I would post on, I'd post on Stack Overflow, and I was like I was one of the people that was like, oh, I want those, like, badges and and the points. You know, I wanna I wanna I wanna get to 10,000 points on Stack Overflow. Like, why? I don't know. I just like, I do.
Ben Orenstein:Number go up?
Matt Swanson:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, same thing. Like, on Hacker News, like, someone showed me Hacker News when I was in college, and then that just became, like, my home page for, like, the next several years. And I would, like, write comments there.
Matt Swanson:And, of course, I can never catch the the people, like, on the top leaderboard, you know, like, the the patio 11s and, of the world. But I I I seem to remember there was, like, some other leaderboard that was, like, the average number of points per comment or something. And so I was like, oh, maybe I can be, like, top 100 in, like, the average comment like, average upvotes per comment or something because, like, I'm never gonna post enough. So I don't know. I think there was that.
Matt Swanson:And then, you know, early in my career working at a consulting company, like, we would have we would have brown bags and presentations and stuff at work. And, like, I was very into that, and I wanted it to be, like, more of a thing than it was. So I would just, like, always sign up to give a talk even if I didn't, like, really want to. I was more, like, hoping to get other people to give talks so that I could, like, learn from them. I think that and then combined with just, like, the time that I sort of came into, like, rails was, like, sort of the height of rails and, like, the the, you know, 20, 2010 kinda era.
Matt Swanson:If you think if you think back, it's like content creation was, like, getting kind of popular for programmers then.
Ben Orenstein:Mhmm.
Matt Swanson:You know, like, I I definitely remember, like, oh, Zach Coleman is, like, doing a conference talk, and it was, like, you know, almost like, you know, the nerd's version of, like, the next, like, Netflix drop was, like, what is this guy gonna, like, say and do in a in a in the talk? And, like, everyone was all into, like, slide design, and, blogging was getting was getting very popular. And then I remember I remember one of the first blog posts I wrote ended up like on the front page of of, hacker news. And so that just kind of gave me probably an unearned, confidence that like, oh yeah, like I can do this and I am like good at writing and good at sharing, sharing my thoughts. And so that's I don't know.
Matt Swanson:I think that those two things just kind of, like, fit my personality liked consuming programming content. And from that, I kind of knew what I liked, and then I could generate some of that. And then I liked having, you know, the the kind of gamified metrics of seeing, you know, numbers go up, bigger number, better person.
Ben Orenstein:Mhmm. Yeah. That's interesting. I that experience of the first thing hitting, I I I I feel that as well where I had some some blog posts that did well early. And, And, like, I've noticed this myself with, like, when a friend introduces a game to me, a board game or something.
Matt Swanson:Mhmm.
Ben Orenstein:It's like if I win the first game we play, I'm like, oh, this game is really good. I think it's, like, a really interesting system. It's well designed. Yeah. And if I lose, I'm like, yeah.
Ben Orenstein:It's just not a great game, unfortunately. You know? It's just like I just don't think I'll probably play it again. Yeah. And, like, I I've like, a lot of my advice to people with content product like, with making interesting with making things is like, yeah, just get started.
Ben Orenstein:Like, make a bad version. It's fine. Like, just start shipping things. But, also, if you get that early hit early on, like, some sort of win like that, it can really, I think, propel you.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. And I I think it's like, the bar is probably lower than people think. I mean, you know, like, I'm on I'm in, like, the rails. I'd be pretty plugged into, like, the rails ecosystem, and it's like, if you just literally posted a screenshot of, like, code that you wrote, like, once a week, like, you'll be in the top, like, 10% of, like, Rails Twitter posters. Like, there's there's not really that much to it.
Matt Swanson:I think people just
Ben Orenstein:interesting point. Like, it's People just don't Most people aren't posting at all. Right? So it's like just putting anything out there, like, immediately rockets you up. That's really true.
Matt Swanson:And I think, like, I I definitely know that from, like, my experience working, you know, so there there's kinda like, you know, people are too online, and they need to, like, touch grass. And I think there's I think there's definitely some of that with, like, software, and we talked earlier about, like, that's you know, remote work is as being a majority, is probably like a Twitter opinion. And, yeah, like, I mean, I live in the Midwest, and I worked at, like, a no name, agency that was a great place to work. And there were smart people there that you know, people that went to work at big companies that you've heard of that you've never heard of the people. But, like, of the 100 engineers that work there, it's like there would be, like, 5 people that would ever, like, write a blog post for the the company, you know, the company blog.
Matt Swanson:And, I think that's the same for for for all of the stuff. And I don't think it's a necessarily novel insight that, you know, like, all the content is generated by, you know, 5% of the of the people, but it's really, it's really not it's not as difficult. Obviously, once you get to, you know, the upper levels, like, things get maybe more competitive or if you're in a bigger market. Like, I don't know that if you post a screenshot of your, like, your JavaScript code that you're gonna, you know, stand out or anyone's gonna care, but in a in an environment where it's a little smaller and, you know, the rails the rails ecosystem is is smaller than, you know, the JavaScript, stuff online, but there's still plenty of people and plenty of opportunities. And, you can still get almost all the benefits that you would from being, you know, a 100,000, follower account or YouTuber if you're, like, a 5,000 follower account in a certain niche.
Ben Orenstein:I do wonder I do wonder how much juice there is left in the just start publishing whatever. Like, just put things out there in the world, and don't worry about it too much kind of orange. Like, I think the bar has is starting to raise a bit, and, like, it's getting cheaper and easier to make mediocre stuff. And I think the returns to really good stuff is are going up, but the returns on, like, average to below content is probably trending down pretty aggressively.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. I think that's that's true. And maybe, like, unstated when I say, like, posting a screenshot of your code, it's like, that is probably more interesting than, like, someone that is just writing once a week, like, a sort of generic, blog post, just because it stands out from what the norm is. Like, I think the norm is, oh, if you wanna, like, get into, you know, sharing, you know, content online or whatever, it's like, oh, just, like, write up a blog article. Right?
Matt Swanson:And
Ben Orenstein:Mhmm. I think a
Matt Swanson:lot of the advice would be like, oh, we you know, keep at it. Like, you just need to consistently publish, and then that turns into, like, oh, yeah. Once a week, I'm, like, writing a blog article, and none of them actually end up standing out. I think some of that too is just like the the media landscape has changed, and, you know, people used to use RSS readers and, like, read every blog post you wrote. But now, like, you read blog post and you post it to Twitter and, you know, Twitter is, like, devaluing, you know, links outside the platform and Right.
Matt Swanson:You know, they don't look as, you know, visually enticing and people don't have an attention span anymore and, everyone is doing video and the the stuff. So, yeah, I think it is it is, it is changing.
Ben Orenstein:Yeah. I do like that specific advice actually of, like, screenshot of code or it's not taking you off the platform. It is visually interesting, and everyone's got an opinion. Like, it sort of naturally is like, oh, like, the people that read this were going to engage are more likely to engage with this. It's a lot of this.
Ben Orenstein:It's very information rich and opportunity for kind of discussion.
Matt Swanson:And I think in a lot of ways, like, a shortcut, some of the things that you have to do. Like, normally, if you're gonna write an article, like, a a blog article, you might say, like, oh, well, I need to, like, genericize this code so that it makes sense to someone that's just finding. And it's like, well, if I'm just literally posting like, here's a code snippet I wrote. Like, I don't I don't have to strip the context out, so I don't have to kind of, like, water down. Maybe there is some element in there that wasn't the main thing I was trying to share, but someone's like, oh, I really liked how you, like, named that thing.
Matt Swanson:And it's like, oh, well, I was going to, you know, take that name out because that's, like, a very specific thing to my code base that doesn't fit in a, you know, in a in a more general sense. So I don't know. Maybe there's maybe there's something there. Maybe there's just, like, demonstration that, like, this is actually real code in a production app and not just, you know, someone, like, regurgitating a tutorial or, this has never been tried. That's maybe specific to the Rails side of things.
Matt Swanson:Like, I think rails itself, like, highly values things and that are extracted from real projects and not, you know, conceived from from, you know, theoretical basis. Like, if I was if I was if I was starting, you know, encouraging someone to, like, start, I would definitely try to have them think about it in, like, a marketing sense. Or, like, what is like, like, can you package up whatever post or piece of content you're gonna do into, like, more of an event or something that stands out more than just, hey. I wrote an article and, like, linked to, like, a, you know, a dev 2 post. Mhmm.
Matt Swanson:That's what I, like, that's what I do, like, myself even. I mean, I'm very, I'm very streaky when it comes to, like, writing, and so the way that I compensate for that is, like, the I'll I'll frame it as, like, I'm doing a season of something. So whether it's a podcast or or a blog, it's like, okay. Maybe I'll write 3 blog posts, and then I'll lump them up together, like, last maybe if I don't remember if it was last summer or the summer before, but I did, like, thing that was like, oh, this is, like, the summer of Hotwire. So I'll be releasing a new post every every week for, like, the month of July about Hotwire.
Matt Swanson:And it was like, there there was more excitement and there was more it was, like, more shareable or, like, people were more interested in it than if I just Yeah. Set you know, publish. Like, here's part 1 of 4 of my Hotwire series.
Ben Orenstein:I like that a lot. I think and it's funny because you're just drawing, like, a kind of fake box around something and putting a name on it.
Matt Swanson:Oh, yeah.
Ben Orenstein:But it I do agree it works. Like, it's just like it's good marketing. It's good positioning.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. I mean, I think I probably like, I'm just stealing this from, like, you know, Gary Bernhardt when he used to do his weekly, like, distrail software. And then at some point, he, like, packaged it up, and it's like, this is like the programmer's compendia, and it's like, you know, 30 30 screencasts all at once. And I was like, oh, like, you've just repackaged this, but it feels like more done. And I I think to him, it was it was more like, oh, people are expecting this as, like, a weekly product.
Matt Swanson:And if I frame it as a weekly product, if I if I frame this as a blog post, people just think it's a blog post. If I frame this as, like, oh, this is an event, like, be sure to, like, pay attention to it. I think it I think it helps. Yeah. Totally.
Ben Orenstein:How did you get hired at Eros?
Matt Swanson:Through Twitter. Nice.
Ben Orenstein:Say more?
Matt Swanson:Well, it's kind of it was sort of twofold. So Daniel and Benedict were the founders of Arrow's, like, sort of were following me from Twitter since they were building a Rails app, and I was posting about Rails things on Twitter. And then on the flip side, Daniel and Benwick also had a podcast, and so I was listening to their podcast. And so I kind of, like, was getting to know them from their podcast, and they were sort of getting to know me from, like, my blog and Twitter. And, at some point, they were hiring, and they reached out to me.
Matt Swanson:And it was actually, like at the at the beginning, I said no. Like, not right now, basically. I was, like, buying a house and moving and, lots of stuff going on and, frankly, like, sort of scared because I had been at my other job for, like, you know, 11 years, and that was the only job that I had worked. So, I kind of stalled and said, like, oh, well, maybe if you're still looking in a month, like, let me know. Kind of thinking like, well, I'm sure they'll find somebody else, and and I can, sit here in my comfort zone.
Matt Swanson:And
Ben Orenstein:Mhmm.
Matt Swanson:The month came, and they said, hey. We still are still looking. And so, I don't know. I just was able to, like, make the leap at that point. But I just remember thinking, before I said yes, I was like, oh, I'm listening to this podcast, and, I listened to, like, a lot of the, like, you know, startup build build your company, you know, behind the scenes podcasts.
Matt Swanson:And I was just like, oh, am I just gonna, like is this gonna be another podcast where I listen and just in 2 years, I'm like, oh, yeah. I've been listening to this podcast for 2 years, or am I gonna, like, join and be like, I know that there's gonna be success here, and why am I not, you know, taking the opportunity to to actually get involved?
Ben Orenstein:And so was there did you how much interview was how was how much proving of your skills was there?
Matt Swanson:Not really anything. I mean, they sort of knew that I could write rails code, and so I think my interview was we just had, like, a, like, more of, like, a vibes check. Like, does is everyone, like, gonna get along? Am I excited about what they're doing? And, yeah.
Matt Swanson:I mean, there was no, like, resume or, like, coding test or anything anything like that. Yeah. Actually actually, don't think I've ever sent a resume for anything. I mean, maybe so, like, the the the one job I had before arrows, I I worked there when I was in school as an intern. So I guess I probably sent in a resume for that, but I worked there, you know, as an intern, and then I joined after I graduated.
Matt Swanson:So because I had worked there already, I didn't need to, like, really interview again. And then, you know, this is this is really only my only my, my second, you know, job. So over over to it having to, like, jump through hoops, which is good because I I think I would probably, you know, do terrible at a coding challenge interview.
Ben Orenstein:That's interesting, actually. Like, I think the I think the point of if you make enough content and you demonstrate your competence, you can really short circuit the interview process or at least this sort of like skill proving component and it becomes more of a vibe check, which I think is true and great. That's awesome. That's a great argument for it. But it's maybe even more of an argument if you like, you don't feel like you are going to interview particularly well.
Ben Orenstein:Like, if that sort of, like, prove your skills in real time in in a coding challenge kind of format is a bad fit for your brain, then maybe even maybe even more reason to demonstrate the competence in a low pressure way.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. I think that rings true at least for me. Like, I I don't have so much, like, a problem with, like, being put on the spot. It's more just like I don't do well with, like, algorithmic type problems. Like, I I just don't think like that very often.
Matt Swanson:And, like, a lot of the work that I've done, to be frank, is more, like, application building, you know, database, you know, CRUD record type stuff, and it's just kind of different from, like, oh, if you need to efficiently traverse, you know, this graph, like, you know, sometimes when I hear people talk about that, I'm just like, I don't ever do that. I couldn't do you know, I could probably do it if I sat down, but, like, especially on the spot, that would be, you know, bad for me.
Ben Orenstein:Yeah. Yeah. I think the more the more you're worried about that, the more an argument it is to get that get those, artifacts of confidence out in the world.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. And I think I think if you have practiced the skill of, like, you know, publishing things, Even if you still have to do, like, like, a traditional, like, job interview process, I think you'll probably stand out just because the bar is pretty low when it comes to, like, a cover letter or, you know, doing your research about a company or having you know, asking good questions. And I think if you're if you're thinking about it like that, you're already, you know, gonna have a much better time than probably the majority of people.
Ben Orenstein:Mhmm. Alright. This is sort of self serving, but you you include this tweet where you you asked why hasn't there been a better Ruby or Rails talk in the last 15 years than this one? And you shared a link to my, aloha Ruby refactoring from good to great talk, which is first of all, thank you. But also
Matt Swanson:Yeah. It's true, objectively.
Ben Orenstein:I'm curious why you feel like that's true. Like, I am proud of that talk. I think it was good. But, I mean and I haven't I don't have my finger on the pulse in the rails education or rails conference talk world anymore, so I I have no ability to actually evaluate that claim. But I'm I'm curious why it feels true to you.
Matt Swanson:I think to me, it was more of, like, it it hit me at the right time, and I think it, you know, it it is long lasting because you're talking about ideas and how you, you know, take take ideas and practices that are also long lasting and apply them in a very practical way. And so that to me is always, gonna put a conference talk, like, in the top, you know, 10 percentile, just because it's not you know? Let me tell you a story about this thing, which are great entertainment, but it's like, there's nothing I can take from that. And so I don't know. I think a lot of a lot of, you know, I talked about this with I think I talked about this with with Aaron Francis on on my podcast when we were talking about, programming books.
Matt Swanson:And I think some of it too is, like, during that time, it was, like, the last time before, like, a lot of programming knowledge and communities and resources and stuff, like, fully became super, like, decentralized. And, you know, the pragmatic programmer's book is, you know, a great book, but it was also probably the last book that was, like, published in borders that, like, literally applied to every niche and industry. Right? And this is, like, kind of a time before, like, ebooks were, you know, as popular, and people were like, oh, just buy my, you know, PDF on Gumroad. So there's really, like, a a curation and, like, a shared, like, language around these things.
Matt Swanson:And so I think, intentionally or not, like, in your talk, you kind of are building upon those ideas that were, like, kind of broadcast out to, like, all programmers that were working, you know, in the year, you know, 2012 or whatever. And those ideas have just stayed longer in in, like, the shared the shared zeitgeist of programming or whatever.
Ben Orenstein:It's funny. I wasn't intentionally back then thinking, like, I wanna give a talk that will still be relevant many years later, but I'm very glad I kind of accidentally did that. Like, I do find people are like, we'll find that talk and appreciate it now. So the returns on that talk, that was a hard talk to prepare because it's a bunch of live coding. And it was the distillation of years of learning interesting coding lessons, at Thoughtbot.
Ben Orenstein:But the returns have still been absurd because I accidentally focused on topics that are still relevant today, and so people still find value from it.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. I think part of it too is, like, again, just more kind of happy accidents of, like, rails itself, like, has not really changed that much. Like, we still have models, and we still have controllers. And, the you know, even though I I don't I don't it probably was like a Rails 3 app or something. Right?
Matt Swanson:And we're on, like, about to be on Rails 8 here. But the same ideas still apply. Like, people are still having the same problems of putting, you know, too much code in certain places and, you know, the answers are still, like, you know, the same as they were 10 years ago.
Ben Orenstein:Yeah. And I think also I think I also was really interested in sort of, like, the object oriented design principles as well. So, like, a number of the the points of that talk are kind of language and framework agnostic really because it's actually about good Mhmm. Object orientation.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. I think that that is true. And I think, you know, to keep, you know, serving your own interest here, like, I think it was, like, a good talk in general. Like, it was, I think you did a lot of things in there that are maybe not obvious around, the pacing and getting you know, I'm I'm sure it was it was great to see live and, like, a live coding talk is always more interesting. There's, like, a element of danger and uncertainty to it that, you know, makes it more exciting.
Ben Orenstein:Totally. Yes. And that part actually was intentional, which is I realized that people being scared that I won't be able to pull off the live coding talk was a huge feature and, like, made it a better talk. Because it wakes people up.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. I think that's true. It's probably, like, a healthier form of, like I know if I tweet something, like, controversial or, like, you know, drama bait y that it will, like, get people's attention. That's probably that's probably, like, a a better way of of doing things of, like, oh, I'm I'm putting myself in a high risk situation.
Ben Orenstein:Yes.
Matt Swanson:You know, everyone wants to see what happens next.
Ben Orenstein:Well and and I felt like so many conference talks like, slides are, like, dead. Like, they're static. And so the thing I kept coming back to as I was thinking of talks back in the when I was doing this so frequently was, like, why is it worth watching this talk live? Mhmm. Like, why be here?
Ben Orenstein:And if I'm just reciting ideas if I'm if I pre write all of my ideas and then go through them with a slide deck, it's kind of like, well, you could just watch this at 1.75x by yourself. But they're so I wanted more of an element of a performance to be happening. Yeah. Like, yeah. Yeah.
Ben Orenstein:Yeah. You can still watch the video, and it's it's okay. But if you were in that room, like, you felt something as this started, I think. And, like, I asked the audience questions, and, like, their input shapes the talk a little bit at least. And so it's like, okay.
Ben Orenstein:There's a there's a reason to be here with me. It's slightly better because you're here.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. And I I definitely feel like you lose that nowadays. Like, because the the analog of a conference talk now is, like, the YouTube video. Right? And, but you can you can sort of edit and rerecord and do another take.
Matt Swanson:And so I think you you lose some of that, excitement that that comes from the performance.
Ben Orenstein:Yep. Yeah.
Matt Swanson:Probably what it gets replaced with, like, that's tickling, like, the same part of the brain is, like, you know, the drama and inflammatory, content that, you know, that kind of fills the gap. I would I would I would pause it.
Ben Orenstein:Alright. I've never seen Nathan for you. Why should I watch this show?
Matt Swanson:Oh, this is I can't believe this. This is actually blowing my mind because it I mean, so, you know, deep deep cut Ben Orenstein fans will know that you used to have a podcast called what was it called? Account Details, where you had sort of Oh
Ben Orenstein:my god.
Matt Swanson:Crazy crazy, like, business comedy ideas with a a friend of yours, and Yep. This is basically that as a as a TV show. Uh-huh. But, I just think it's really to me, it, like, scratches all the right itches of, like, mischief and, like, creative outside the box thinking, that that I think helps you think of new ideas. So, I mean, the premise of the show is that, Nathan Fielder is like a a business consultant that comes to help these small businesses, but his ideas are always just, like, a little bit out there.
Matt Swanson:And but it's he, you know, plays it completely straight and is is deadpan. And so, like, in in the first episode, he tells a pizza company that they should offer, delivery. And if and if they don't deliver the pizza within 10 minutes, then it'll be free. And, you know, the pizza owner is like, well, we we we can't deliver a pizza in 10 minutes. It takes us, like, 12 minutes to make a pizza.
Matt Swanson:And so Nathan, you know, just in in complete, deadpan just says, well, like, yes, but we didn't, you know, we didn't specify the size of the free pizza, so he has them make a small, like a 1 inch, like, pizza bagel, and that's the free pizza. So, you know, you know, the the pizza owner's like, you know, won't won't the customers be mad? And Nathan is like, no, I don't think they'll be mad. And so then the rest of the show is is them delivering these pizzas, and the customers are like, yeah, this should be free. Like, it was it took you 30 minutes, and, the port delivery driver, like, gives them this little pizza bagel and says, you know, well, here's your free free pizza, and, you know?
Matt Swanson:So they're the the premise the premises are always, similar to that. But to me, it's like just a great, a great example of taking a problem and then breaking it down and then finding what areas you can push on a little bit, and maybe something, great will come out of it.
Ben Orenstein:Alright. Well, you're the second or third person who's recommended this particular show to me. So I think there's something in it that people are seeing.
Matt Swanson:I think you'll I think you'll enjoy it. Yeah.
Ben Orenstein:Yeah. It does sound like me.
Matt Swanson:I guess it depends on on, your tolerance for, like, cringe, humor in in television.
Ben Orenstein:Mhmm. Yeah. Well, in practice, I find I have almost no television tolerance, so we'll see. Every once in a while, I'll get into a show, but it's like it's even the good ones, it it takes a lot to hook me. Yeah.
Ben Orenstein:But I I also am down to try. I test things out. Any other topics you are feeling passionate about that you'd like to chat chat about?
Matt Swanson:I don't know. Do you do you wanna talk about, selling ads on the penny? That's that's, like, a Nathan for you.
Ben Orenstein:Yes. Let's let's let's hit let's hit it. Here here here with your scheme.
Matt Swanson:Well, so you know the common adage that, like, it costs 3¢ to make a penny because the cost of materials. So my idea was, like, why doesn't the government sell ads on the back of the penny to just kind of recoup recoup the costs? So then instead of us spending, you know, we're losing 2¢ every time you make a penny. We could be we could be potentially gaining, you know, 3 to 4¢ every time a penny is made. And I I think it's just a good advertising platform for a company.
Matt Swanson:Like, the money is gonna be around for 100 of years. You know? If you're like Chase Bank, you want Chase Bank to be on the back of the money. You don't want, you know, what's another bank? Bank of America on on there.
Matt Swanson:You know, McDonald's and Burger King, they'll be fighting over who could be on on the penny. I just think it's very American to sell ads on the back of of of the penny. And then, you know, everybody everyone really loved the state quarters when those came out, collecting all the state quarters. So I think this could be this could be the same. Every season, you could have a a new drop of, you know, branded, currency merch.
Ben Orenstein:It's it's intriguing. I feel like they should sell ads on the penny and then just discontinue. Just be like, alright. We hit we we've jumped the shark. We did it knowingly and have and now we just decided.
Ben Orenstein:That's it. We're we're good.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. I think people people people could be putting ads on a lot more things.
Ben Orenstein:I guess. Is that good? Well,
Matt Swanson:maybe. I guess it just just depends. I mean, I always wondered and, you know, the pandemic really kinda messed it up, but, like, if people would start selling ads, like, inside of a cubicle, like, you could put, you know, your ads on, you know, the the the inside of a cubicle, and then maybe, you know, I could I could get, like, a free, keyboard in exchange for, you know, having, you know, this ad that's just in my periphery.
Ben Orenstein:Maybe we should just pass on the penny costs to the people that want pennies. Or it's like you can continue to use pennies, but they cost 3¢ now.
Matt Swanson:Oh, interesting. Yeah. I don't know how the math on that would work out, but, yeah, I'm not a big, supporter of the penny. I'm just it, you know, it's just free money, you know, that they could be they could be, charging someone for.
Ben Orenstein:Totally. Yeah. I think I I think I do appreciate the distinction between some sort of sacrosanct government thing and, you know, not shilling private enterprise on it. Like, ads on the Capitol building or something sure could make money, but it's sort of offensive somehow.
Matt Swanson:Naming they well, I mean, they they can have the naming rights to it like they do for, you know, sports arenas. The crypto.com, you know, Jefferson Memorial.
Ben Orenstein:Ugh. Okay.
Matt Swanson:Not into that? Alright.
Ben Orenstein:Yeah. No. I think I'm I think I'm I think I'm pro less advertising than more.
Matt Swanson:But I
Ben Orenstein:like the outside of the box thinking. Let's, you know, keep it keep it going.
Matt Swanson:Keep it going.
Ben Orenstein:Keep
Matt Swanson:it up. We'll we'll get something good.
Ben Orenstein:Totally. We'll workshop it. Dream of all new currency. Subscription based currency. Has anyone tried this yet?
Matt Swanson:Yes. I think, all the people are currently in jail.
Ben Orenstein:Okay. Great. Well, you know, like I said, we'll workshop it.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. I mean, cryptocurrency has been around, you know, for decades. They just used to call it Kohl's Cash. But, nice.
Ben Orenstein:Alright. Well, thanks for dropping by the podcast and sharing your knowledge, and please continue publishing. It's there's not a lot of programmers that write well, speak well, put that stuff out there, so keep going.
Matt Swanson:Yeah. Thanks. I enjoy doing it, and, feels good to, have people tell me that. So, you know, I love compliments. So if you have compliments, please give them.
Ben Orenstein:Yes. Cool. Alright. Well, take care.
